Tags
Alain de Botton, atheism, Lawrence M. Krauss, Religion and Spirituality, Richard Dawkins, Steve Paikin
Well, first off – this post is inspired from a blog that I visited where it was suggested that narrative and symbolism of religious making may have lasting value. See: Gods & heroes by Steve Morris
Second, I am Christian and this post is not intended to inspire nor put down anything. Its just an aside post here, I think. What it may mean to you is what I don’t know.
Please make comment if you’d care to do so. I probably don’t want to debate. I do wonder what others think though.
Religion is not just for
believers anymore
Philosopher and author Alain de Botton says non-believers can learn a lot from religion – without believing in God. He sits down with Steve Paikin.
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If you are still with me, I wonder what you may think about an insider view of what strategies atheists talk about on views of how to convince people to consider un-belief. Actually, I hope to see the film being discussed. I did discover that it probably is not a decisive blast against religion but I haven’t seen it yet. So, I have this:
Regarding the documentary “The Unbelievers”
Here are two of the men featured in the film: professor Richard Dawkins and physicist Lawrence Krauss sitting down with Steve Paikin to tell us that they don’t believe.
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Need help or want to collaborate with me? Just e-mail me at thehunt4truth@yahoo.com
Check back frequently. I love learning with you.
Eric
Related articles (hunt4truth.wordpress.com)
- stillness – your essential nature
- Spiritual Laws of Success
- we exchange energy – always
- Amazing things happen every day
- You shall reap what you sow.
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the Hunt for Truth 
Eric, I love your blog mantra “Hunt for Truth”…I have always considered myself a truth seeker; now a truth finder. I believe it is important that each person find his/her own truth…this is sacred to our spiritual evolution.
Physics and Cosmological science are not our only sources.
Archeologists are on the look for ancient documents and artifacts. The God gene hypothesis proposes that a specific gene (VMAT2) predisposes humans towards spiritual or mystic experiences. Many university research studies independently link spiritual experiences to parts of the brain. Spirituality is so deeply part of cultures all over the world…
However, Hebrews 11 settles this for the Christian
by the review of
Faith in Action
1Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. 2This is what the ancients were commended for.
3By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
4By faith Abel brought God a better offering than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith Abel still speaks, even though he is dead.
5By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: “He could not be found, because God had taken him away.” For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. 6And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that is in keeping with faith.
8By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going. 9By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise. 10For he was looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God. 11And by faith even Sarah, who was past childbearing age, was enabled to bear children because she considered him faithful who had made the promise. 12And so from this one man, and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance, admitting that they were foreigners and strangers on earth. 14People who say such things show that they are looking for a country of their own. 15If they had been thinking of the country they had left, they would have had opportunity to return. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them.
17By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had embraced the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only son, 18even though God had said to him, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 19Abraham reasoned that God could even raise the dead, and so in a manner of speaking he did receive Isaac back from death.
20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau in regard to their future.
21By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of Joseph’s sons, and worshiped as he leaned on the top of his staff.
22By faith Joseph, when his end was near, spoke about the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and gave instructions concerning the burial of his bones.
23By faith Moses’ parents hid him for three months after he was born, because they saw he was no ordinary child, and they were not afraid of the king’s edict.
24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh’s daughter. 25He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin. 26He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward. 27By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel.
29By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell, after the army had marched around them for seven days.
31By faith the prostitute Rahab, because she welcomed the spies, was not killed with those who were disobedient.
32And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37They were put to death by stoning; they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated — 38the world was not worthy of them. They wandered in deserts and mountains, living in caves and in holes in the ground.
39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, 40since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
What a great idea! I love this kind of discussion. First, I see from where Morris is coming. To summarize, he is saying that wisdom can be found in religious writings. This is true. What Morris leaves out is belief and reverence to the deity. In the case of Jesus-followers and Christians, this is a precarious position for an unbeliever; to an unbeliever it is logical, whereas they find us illogical. But what is cool is that God-of Jesus Christ-will use this opportunity to make His presence known, which gives me butterflies and shivers. It’s exciting. Won’t it be awesome-great when Morris discovers his God who loves him? Won’t it be awesome-great to welcome him into our “family”?
Also, Erik Erikson-a mentor of mine-states “when religion loses its acutal power of presence, then, it would seem, an age must find other forms of joint reverence for life which derive vitality from a shared world image” (Erikson, 1968, p. 106).
I present this quote, because we all know the end is near and there will be no return to the sanctity of God implemented by our forefathers; however, if we can use biblical principles disguised as “real world wisdom”, then we are able to upholds God’s standards. We know that without the conscience of our Father chaos ensues. I would rather have unbelievers use biblical principles as a guide than to have a skewed guide or no guide at all. So let this man lead whomever he will in the Word, even if he proclaims it is non-religious in origin. It’s still God’s word no matter how you package it. In fact, it’s my goal to get the spirit of Jesus back into the school under the guise of “rational thinking.” If you can’t confront them head on, come in from the side.
1 Corinthian 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
And my favorite song, which makes me cry every time:
“Have you ever heard a love song
That set your spirit free?
Have you ever watched a sunrise
And felt you could not breathe?
What if it’s Him? What if it’s God speaking?
Have you ever cried a tear
That you could not explain?
Have you ever met a stranger
Who already knew your name?
What if it’s Him? What if it’s God speaking?
Who knows how He’ll get a hold of us?
Get our attention to prove He’s enough
He’ll do and He’ll use whatever he wants to
To tell us ‘I love you’
Have you ever lost a loved one
Who you thought should still be here?
Do you know what it feels like
To be tangled up in fear?
What if He’s somehow involved?
What if He’s speaking through it all?
Who knows how He’ll get a hold of us?
Get our attention to prove He’s enough?
He’ll do and He’ll use whatever he wants to
To tell us ‘I love you’
His ways are higher, His ways are best
Though sometimes strange
What could be stranger than God in a manger?
Who knows how He’ll get a hold of us?
Get our attention to prove He’s enough?
Who knows how He’ll get a hold of you?
Get your attention to prove He’s enough?
He’ll do and He’ll use whatever He wants to
To tell us ‘I love you’
God is speaking, ‘I love you’.”
–Mandisa
So I say to you, cohorts! Shed your doubt. Have faith, for our God is mighty and He will use this man as a vessel to aid in the completion of His plan, which He fomented with love, grace, mercy, and compassion!
Erikson, E. H. (1968). Identity: Youth and Crisis. New York: W. W. Norton & Company.
I think Erikson’s work is exceptional – Maslow, Grof and Wilber became more interesting to me. With continuing work rooted in interests of psychologists including William James and Carl Jung, in 1969, Abraham Maslow, Stanislav Grof and Anthony Sutich with others founded the Journal of Transpersonal Psychology. Later, Stanislav Grof and others took the emerging spiritual psychology further along and in 1972 the Association for Transpersonal Psychology was begun. Ken Wilber defines “transpersonal” as “personal plus.” Transpersonal psychology combines a variety of approaches in psychology, including behaviorism, cognitive psychology and humanistic psychology, along with other disciplines, including Eastern and Western philosophy, mysticism, mindfulness and the world’s religions.The Association for Transpersonal Psychology promotes the use of meditation in health care; increased dialog between science and spiritual traditions; scientific recognition of the importance of religious beliefs in maintaining personal health; and an increasing recognition of the importance of spiritual values in conducting sustainable commerce. more http://www.atpweb.org/
Okay. Great. I’ll check it out. I wrote two chapters disputing two rungs on Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, actually.
To summarize, transpersonal psychology is meditation to increase brain function? I’d like to learn how to meditate. Maybe it will help me focus on writing my novel and calm down faster when I get frustration anxiety.
Books have been written about the feats of Jesus. John, one of his disciples, wrote,
“Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name.” John 20:30-31 NIV
What is more astounding than the feats that Jesus did perform?
How about this: “You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.” John 14:12 NIV
I found the second video first – but I didn’t listen to her speak… I loaded it again after posting the first one … its WAY better that I did; Now, I am crying too Heather. Thanks for mentioning the song. I love her older voice even more so.
Why when we turn away from God must we be so bold as to deny that we KNOW He loves us? Its fear. The human without God is riddled by fear – some cover it with hardness and they are just awful – you know that well I am sure – others are gentle and courteous and peaceful and worldly less so – they do not concern me because they haven’t looked for Him in their hearts yet and then denied Him. At least, I don’t believe that is possible. In any case, I believe I am to offer kindness and loving acceptance for all.
I can’t see what you posted from this app but I bet you are talking about Mandisa. I cry when I hear that song because it is overwhelming that He loves me so much.
As far those who don’t believe in the God of Jesus Christ, I understand from where they are coming. Without faith, it sounds like mythology, but something in me just “knows” better than to believe that.
I occasionally get involved in a debate regarding the mechanics of reality and even evolution (although I tend to take that as quickly as possible back to physics which is the basis for all of matter and even biology. You may be interested in this: http://selfawarepatterns.com/2013/12/29/evolution-and-altruism/
About physics, I love the idea about energy particles having the ability to communicate from as far as billions of miles away. You read that article not too long ago. I think it would be an article Steve would find interesting. What do you think?
I don’t know that article. “Energy particles” isn’t really a science term, so I don’t know what it refers to. Could be quantum entanglement, which is an ongoing area of research. Einstein hated the idea, but it seems to be a real phenomenon. At this stage it’s a scientific curiosity, but such things are often clues that lead to new physics.
I’m not good with physics-or its terminology-so here is the article I read.
With all respect, I think that is a pretty confused article. The conclusion that “everything must be in a relationship to live” is completely erroneous, as it derives from the observation that certain subatomic particles interact with each other under certain circumstances. The author then extends this statement to his conclusion that “the cosmos is signed by the stamp of the Triune God of Christians”.
With this kind of logic you could prove anything you wanted.
Here’s my take on this. You won’t find proof of God in science, and you can’t use science to disprove God.
I respect your position. Thank you for weighing in, Steve. I think all sides of the argument should be accounted for and I say “should”, because as you have stated, each person has his or her own perspective, which has a right to validation however differing the perspective.
I should use the proper terms – they just seem meaningless – fermions (leptons and quarks), hadrons (mesons, baryons) protons, neutrons, electrons, and the most interesting lately (energy – force and partner subparticles) bosons and super-partner particles.
Here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_particle
actually I suppose I ought to say subatomic particles – but that just seems so wrong. I do visit teilhard.com
Cool. I posted that for Steve, because I called them energy particles and I wanted him to see the actual article, so he’d have an idea of what I meant. If scientists are right that seems like a practical we plantation as to how God “knows” all. There is a logical explanation for everything and much we don’t understand until we “understand” it. For example, FaceTime, bionic body parts, self-driving cars, implanted microchips that save human memory data, spy satellites, satellite laser technology, drones, and the inexhaustible list goes on.
This at least is very brief: http://www.todayquestions.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-quantum-sign-of-life.html It was already linked at the previous post from William that has been noted as Teilhard.com
re: the-quantum-sign-of-life
It seems very strange actually to me that very brilliant men and women of science tend to miss the very most essential observations with so much time for them to see what is shown by God in a flash – staying on the track with their predictions; its as though that they missed something seemingly simple like as how to convert a fraction to a decimal. Of course particles continue to emerge from energy and energy continues to affect those particles even when they may seemingly be insulated in a vast density of structure. Of course the diversity of those unseen particles and expressions of energy ad forces and near energy and near particles is only barely even at all known… Do they somehow forget that all the structure is as if not that it is there with the eye of God? Of course there is an instantaneous awareness of predictably occurring possible outcomes – and a bit of outcome (planning) probability is built right into even the most insubstantial of a thing. Its a wonderful place to see this and feel it and yet be incapable of saying this because I greatly appreciate God then. In this time many are invited. As you know, what is shown is plain to see. We understand this in His presence.
Thank you for the link. I love exploring ways God can be evidenced. I wish I could open your links in my WP app : /
If I can read your responses here, why can’t I see your blog in my reader?
I don’t know – so, actually though, I have a problem with certain blogs and now with this, it makes no sense to me. My blog is very generic really. Nothing added. try the reader: http://wordpress.com/#/read/blog/id/54627102/
I realized an easy way to access your articles. I am taking your titles and putting them in your search box on the safari site and then your post pops right up in your blog so I don’t have to hunt for it.
Sorry, I am late to the discussion. I enjoyed Steve Morris’ article and respect the work that Alain de Botton is doing. Both men are accurate in pointing out that symbolism, narrative and community are core aspects of what it means to be human. We can use the sciences to better understand these attributes of humanity.
The core question is why we are that way. Reasonable people can differ on this. Atheists can point to theories that reduce these attributes to genetics (Dawkins) or psychology (Harris and Jung). Religious people can use these scientific disciplines to understand these characteristics but also believe that they point to other dimension of reality beyond the three-dimensional material world, whether it be deism, theism, polytheism or other dimensions of reality outside our known universe or multi-verse.
Ultimately, Steve is correct that the existence of God or other dimensions of existence will never be proven or disproven by science as these questions of ultimate existence and meaning are not capable of being proven by science.
Peace,
W. Ockham
I added a reply above… science so far cannot prove nor disprove God is true. However, we are not reliant only on physics. More will be revealed.
I believe that belief in deities will never go away as long as people live. There is always that yearning for spirituality in our lives.
Thanks for the mention, Eric! There is of course much in religion that is of lasting value. But as an atheist, I believe there are things that must be discarded if we are to arrive at a better understanding of our world.
People who worship regularly derive a lot of benefits – as de Botton discusses in his book – and in particular narrative. This, I believe, can be remedied through fiction, either the written word, or movies. I hope that doesn’t sound too trivial! I actually believe that narrative is the glue that holds together our understanding of everything.
Here is my – short story – of why I am Christian – and therefore find nothing of value in any denial of God. Christianity recognizes the sovereignty of God. Christianity is not the story of how culture is to evolve nor for how government is to order itself nor for how social values are to be valued. Christians recognize that morals are absolute. Christianity offers the story of Jesus, the one perfect man, sent into a physical life by the source of all of the material and energy that is, to be the last sacrifice – to imprint onto humanity the complete and utterly impossible to otherwise attain need for salvation. That is why people built enormous mosques and complexes of temples, cathedrals, churches, religious doctrines, fought against removal of worshipful prayer from schools, and why they sought for and continue to seek for salvation and for God‑given grace and this seems to me and for other Christians essential.
I love many sort of secular knowledge and places and people.
In looking at history, Christian religious were controlling and leaders led us astray possibly as often as we were led towards our source, God.
God, in a beginning for us, is one God, Unconditional Love, the source of All that is Real. Nothing that may manage to completely divide itself from God, if that even is possible, is of value. I personally don’t trouble myself beyond God is Love and this means to me that I am to step myself up to be loving.
So, I’m not actually playing a game of I’m more tolerant; I’m doing my best to be what I am intended to be – loving.
In my experience, God is Real. Yet, in physical form, I am driven by instincts. In the physical form, the hierarchy of needs is reversed so that pursuit of instincts and survival of the fittest seem to be how we are to behave. If you know Abraham Maslow’s work – turn the pyramid upside down – you’ve got the simplified Spiritual version of our Real needs.
We are spiritual beings having a human experience – many think they are human beings looking for a spiritual experience – and many others think they are human beings looking to evolve greater forms of being.
As I read and view material by Botton, Krauss, Dawkins – and others – I love that they are thorough and patient and disciplined and orderly and scientifically philosophic. They prefer to live by the upside down definition of our world life needs. That’s fine with me. They will have ample opportunity to review their choices and if they can maintain being honest, open and willing to learn, they will choose to accept the truth as it emerges.
God’s truth always comes in layers – stages – more follows from some. The suffering is not done with because we live in reverse of our spiritual needs. We seek to satisfy our instinctual drives before we grow into being loving.
I could not come by finding my way from family, fiction, art, narratives, histories, science, philosophy, or even religion to where I know God is Real. It requires knowing something of and from God to learn more.
What I know comes to me because I ask God to know more of what is right.
God made a personal relationship with me by my willingness – being open to learn of Him – by His gift in me of the Holy Spirit.
So, I learned that we are made to be love – 100% unconditional love.
I therefore don’t fight anyone or any thing. I may certainly seek legal settlements if any may be won – such as restoring prayer in schools.
Devout Christians will mostly not agree with any need to restrict religious practices. There are some – in fact there are some that say that any that are saved are already written into the book of life. I am more simple. As far as I know any person may accept that God is his/her source – even after death. Receiving the Holy Spirit is in my opinion available to any person.
I pray always that my blog will help others to see that they are needing of the Holy Spirit.
I will continue to post by any means I can to open my readers to considering their higher spiritual longings for unconditional love. Some will quit after they follow and that is okay. Others will disagree with my methods and may quit following too even if they also are Christian, and that is okay too. Some will be practicing another reliogion and stay or no religion and stay. Its all okay with me.
Thanks for commenting Steve. You are a genuinely considerate man and I greatly appreciate your visits.
~ Eric
Thank you Eric, I am glad that we have met and I look forward to more interesting thoughts, reads and discussions on both our blogs.
Hi Steve. I’m thankful you have the intelligence to know great wisdom when you read it and to be fearless in executing your own beliefs.
Erikson states, “To have courage of one’s diversity is a sign of wholeness in individuals and in civilization.”
Also, as a non-believer if you are choosing the wisdom of the God of Jesus Christ harden your heart all you will for you are wading into the dangerous waters of faith, hope, and love, which are difficult to resist. I hope you chart your entire journey for I’m anxious to witness your conclusion. So Eric I’m counting on you to keep us updated!
Hi analyticalperspective! Thanks for the welcome, and you can follow my journey on my blog 🙂 But you will have to “harden your heart” as I am one of the most convinced atheists you will ever meet. I won’t be joining your Chistian “family” but perhaps you can welcome me as a distant cousin who is on the same journey, but treading a different path. Happy travelling!
You’re on : ) I’ll settle for a distant cousin if that’s what you have to offer. I have two friends who are atheists and they are truly like brothers to me. And the man I have loved the most in my life is also atheist, although I can tell he thinks there might be a god; I can tell because he had a lot of questions for me. Nice to meet you, Steve.
Nice to meet you too. Here’s another secret – I married a Christian and one of my closest friends is a Catholic priest. Maybe one day people will learn to love each other despite having different beliefs. Here’s hoping it happens in 2014!
Thank you for sharing that secret with me ; )